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Post Info TOPIC: MTD Confusion


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MTD Confusion


Hi all.

 

I'm really confused with regard to MTD for Vat.  And I'm hoping you can all help me.

I'm a bookkeeper.  All my clients have their own Sage software which I use to prepare their Vat Returns.  Historically I always submitted the Vat Returns via the HMRC Government Gateway, but in readiness for MTD I have made sure that all my clients have upgraded their versions of Sage to MTD compliant and I have now started submitting their Vat Returns via their individual Sage software.  Job's a good one, I thought - I'm ready.

Now I'm wondering if I am!!  The following questions are swirling round my head. 

- Is the fact that I've started submitting Vat Returns via the software enough - or do I have to sign each client up to the MTD pilot to tell HMRC that I'm submitting the Vat Returns via Sage - surely they know?

- Due to the fact that I'm submitting each client's Vat Return via their own software - do I need an Agent Services Account at all?

- If I do need an Agent Services Account - due to the fact that I'm submitting each client's Vat Return via their own software - surely I don't put my Agent User ID and Password into their software in order to submit Vat Returns - it's not very secure for all my clients to have access to my Agent User ID and password.

Hoping you can help with some good advice.

Thanks in advance.

 



__________________

Debbi



Master Book-keeper

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Date:

Purple Lava wrote:

 I have made sure that all my clients have upgraded their versions of Sage to MTD compliant and I have now started submitting their Vat 


Hi Debbie

Dont mean to be rude but WHY - ouch on price!!

Do NOT SIGN UP FOR THE PILOT.  NOT NOT NOT.  BIG ISSUES and then its mandatory.   

MTD could still be pulled.

No time for the rest just now

 

 

 

 



__________________

Joanne  

 

Winner - Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 and 2017

Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.

 



Expert

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I suppose, technically, I don't have time either, given that I have to sift through a pile of three months of my own paperwork and get my own VAT return done - but meh, there's no need to panic... I'm logged in anyway to reply to Joanne in another thread, I may as well answer this one. ;)

Firstly, more coffee... ;)

Anyway, as Joanne said, but "why?" re the Sage upgrades. To continue submitting VAT returns under MTD directly from their own copies of Sage, you've committed them to an ongoing annual subscription. (From a previous "conversation" with Sage, it's only the MTD module that has to be subscribed to - you can use it with [a compatible version of] Sage that itself is on a perpetual licence, so not as much as the main software itself, but still! I personally would avoid that, because Sage are being absolute dicksmiths about it. (As are a lot of others, TBH, but I have a special level of dislike for Sage - even as someone who prefers to use their software).

I don't know how many clients you have, but work out the annual ongoing cost of the software for each of them, total it all up. For example, let's say it's 10 clients, and it's just the MTD module that you've subscribed them to, and that costs £120/year (no idea what the actual figure is - and probably higher because I think that's around the price SJ Software is charging). That would be a total of £1200/year.

Now look at other options and compare. The first one that springs to mind is BTC software - https://www.btcsoftware.co.uk/

It appears to be cloud-based (BOO!), but I only remember it because I saw the link to it recently so took a look. It's good enough for a price comparison, though. They offer a bridging solution for £250/year which allows up to 250 VAT returns to be submitted - so up to 63 clients, assuming quarterly returns.

Okay, that would be a cost to you (unless you adjust your fees to incorporate it somehow), but the overall cost is considerably less than a total £1200/year spend assuming 10 clients. And consider if you scale that up - if you gain more clients (or even have more, given that I just plucked a number out of the air).

They also have a per-company version, which costs (IIRC) £50/year. So each of your clients could subscribe to that, rather than pay Sage's higher price.

There will be other bridging solutions out there.

Okay, you've gone down the Sage route now - but look at the options available and consider getting out of it and back onto a non-recurring Sage-cost as soon as you can.

And also, as Joanne said, don't sign anyone up to the pilot. Don't go down the MTD route until and unless you have to.

Now to your other questions, which can be answered as one:

"Due to the fact that I'm submitting each client's Vat Return via their own software - do I need an Agent Services Account at all?

If I do need an Agent Services Account - due to the fact that I'm submitting each client's Vat Return via their own software - surely I don't put my Agent User ID and Password into their software in order to submit Vat Returns - it's not very secure for all my clients to have access to my Agent User ID and password."

You don't need it to submit the way you're doing - and you're right, putting it in their software would be the wrong thing to do. Not only from a security point of view, but also because (AFAIK) it just wouldn't work; it's effectively a per-company solution, so won't understand the agent concept.

If you used a bridging solution for an agent - such as the £250/year BTC solution mentioned above - then you'd sign into that with your agent details, and each client who has authorised you as their agent would appear in it. When submitting a return, you select which client you're acting on, then follow the necessary steps to draw in their VAT figures.



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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software

(I only came here looking for fellow apiarists...)



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Hi Vince (and Joanne).

Thank you for your comments. I really do appreciate you taking the time to respond.

I understand that everyone is going to handle the software decisions differently in line with their own personal preferences, and that's absolutely fine with me. Personally, if you cut me open you'd find Sage written through me like a stick of rock, so it's the only software I currently use and I'm too long in the tooth to start thinking about changing now. You are right in your assumption that I only have a small number of clients, all of whom own their own software, either outright or on a subscription basis originally. They all want to continue to use me for their bookkeeping and did not want to move from Sage. Those that have moved to a subscription basis for Sage as a result of MTD, didn't actually feel that £15/month was too bad to keep a piece of software that they already own up-to-date and compliant. Also I do not want to go down the route of owning my own software with multiple clients - a lot of my clients want their own access and I am happier with that.

So that decision has been taken and is done and dusted. As a result, my original questions still stand:-

- Is the fact that I've started submitting Vat Returns via the software enough - or do I have to sign each client up to the MTD pilot to tell HMRC that I'm submitting the Vat Returns via Sage - surely they know?      I understand you've both told me not to sign up to the pilot now, and that I should wait, but is that something that I will eventually have to do?  I was thinking that the fact that I've started submitting from the software would be enough.

- Due to the fact that I'm submitting each client's Vat Return via their own software - do I need an Agent Services Account at all?

- If I do need an Agent Services Account - due to the fact that I'm submitting each client's Vat Return via their own software - surely I don't put my Agent User ID and Password into their software in order to submit Vat Returns - it's not very secure for all my clients to have access to my Agent User ID and password.  From what you've said Vince, it sounds like I need to use the client's individual User IDs and passwords in their software, which makes sense - but does this cause any problems with HMRC - ie, I am an agent, but working on behalf of the client and therefore submitting under their credentials (albeit with my contact details attached).



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Debbi



Master Book-keeper

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Date:

Purple Lava wrote:

Hi Vince (and Joanne).



I understand that everyone is going to handle the software decisions differently in line with their own personal preferences, and that's absolutely fine with me. Personally, if you cut me open you'd find Sage written through me like a stick of rock, so it's the only software I currently use and I'm too long in the tooth to start thinking about changing now. You are right in your assumption that I only have a small number of clients, all of whom own their own software, either outright or on a subscription basis originally. They all want to continue to use me for their bookkeeping and did not want to move from Sage. Those that have moved to a subscription basis for Sage as a result of MTD, didn't actually feel that £15/month was too bad to keep a piece of software that they already own up-to-date and compliant. Also I do not want to go down the route of owning my own software with multiple clients - a lot of my clients want their own access and I am happier with that.



Stick of rock with sage written on it!     Same here, 98%, up to a point.

Would not be ripped off by their lies telling folk they needed to upgrade to be MTD compliant.   They didnt need to pay even the £15 pm to do so.  They could be using free or cheap as chips bridging software to run the VAT for them.   Never mind that if MTD is not rolled out then they have paid for nothing.

Im writing this for the benefit of others who never comment but read this forum avidly and for the others who might come across this post given the increased pressure now coming out from HMRC.

DO NOT FALL FOR SOFTWARE COMPANY's LIES! 

1)  No need to go cloud based.

2) No need to pay ridiculous fees.

3) No need to upgrade your software

4) You just need bridging software.   Free.   Or pay a small feed depending on the software house chosen.

ALL OF THIS HAS ACTUALLY BEEN COVERED AD INFINITUM    BY THE FEW POSTERS WHO RESPOND ON HERE.

 

 

But Debbie as you say you are where you. re

- Is the fact that I've started submitting Vat Returns via the software enough - or do I have to sign each client up to the MTD pilot to tell HMRC that I'm submitting the Vat Returns via Sage - surely they know?      I understand you've both told me not to sign up to the pilot now, and that I should wait, but is that something that I will eventually have to do?  I was thinking that the fact that I've started submitting from the software would be enough.

 

Possibly not.

You are jumping the gun.  MTD has NOT, repeat NOT, been rolled out yet.  Last I heard (last week, or was it the week before?) The House of Lords have bounced it back to the Commons as the biggest pile of junk change that is anti businesses and not workable.

The pilot is proving challenging and the system with HMRC is creaking/failing so (in short) thats why I say do NOT sign up for the pilot.  Because once you do then you are stuck with it and cannot reverse out of it.     

Just do what you have always done for now, until the thing is forced through in law (IF that happens!)

I dont know how often you check out other posts on here, other than when you ask Qs, but I can recommend that you keep your eye on future posts on here as the truth is spoken, as opposed to the party line tripe that is spouted by HMRC and some of the software houses, so to speak.  

 

 

 



__________________

Joanne  

 

Winner - Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 and 2017

Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.

 



Master Book-keeper

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Posts: 2675
Date:

The software companies must be rubbing their hands with glee.  Assuming Debbie does have 1o clients thats a nice fat profit for Sage.

"The pilot is proving challenging and the system with HMRC is creaking/failing so (in short) thats why I say do NOT sign up for the pilot.  Because once you do then you are stuck with it and cannot reverse out of it."

Is that a no then Joanne?  biggrin  Thank you because I had planned to sign a client up in January, just to test the FREE Avalara bridging software, but I will follow your advice and leave it until April.  I thought it was way too late to stop it going ahead now, but hadn't realised the HoL had passed it back to the Commons.

 

Hi Vince

I've had a look at the BTC offer, and other than the dashboard, which I think is probably worth it if you have 25 or more VAT registered clients, there are a lot cheaper options available.  My choice will be either Avalara or NJT Technologies.  The latter also allows Sage imports (Sage 50 v 16-24 and Instant Accounts v20.) Not sure on Avalara.



__________________

John 

 

 

 Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.

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